[00:00:00] Sir David Attenborough: Nature once determined how we survive. Now we determine how nature survives.

[00:00:17] Arjun: That was the voice of Sir David Attenborough reminding us how times have changed. Consider this in Chennai a tanker collisions spilled oil across the coast overnight. Fishermen lost their livelihoods and families paid the price for negligence. They had no part of. In Bangalore, a lake caught fire. Not once but many times.

[00:00:43] And in Delhi entire neighborhoods still struggle to breathe living under clouds of toxic smoke. These are true stories. Sometimes you didn't spill the oil, you didn't pollute the lake, you didn't ignite the waste, you didn't profit from it, and yet you are the victim sometimes. It takes a disaster to learn that we are missing a few jobs that could have helped us avoid it.

[00:01:09] We often come across people with very interesting jobs. Some create, some serve, some protect, and then there are those whose job is to say no. To stand in the way of progress when progress itself begins to harm the land, the waters, and the people who depend on them. That brings us to today's guest, Shira soi.

[00:01:35] An environmental lawyer and policy researcher was chosen to focus her work on wildlife Subra and her team at Humane Society International India. Were part of this research that brought about a landmark shift in making snake bite related deaths in India as a nationally notifiable condition. What began with Karnataka as the first state to act has now expanded in 2024.

[00:02:05] Across the country with India declaring snake bite as a nationally notifiable condition. It's a powerful reminder how policy and the right voices at the table can create a change that can save lives.

[00:02:22] It seemed like RA's work was more than just legal work. It felt like a mission. A mission to stand for the environment itself, and standing against all forces acting against it. Whether it is people power or saying no at the face of progress, this field was very new to us, so we asked her some questions around law, the ethics, the diplomacies, and what it means to protect the environment.

[00:02:51] We all share from a legal point of view.

[00:02:57] Dinesh: I wanna understand this environmental lawyer's role a little more. 'cause uh, people from various fields come and care about the environment, right? And in, in candid settings, we all talk about what's happening to the environment and things like that. But to me, um, environmental lawyers. Uh, seem to have a lot in line.

[00:03:17] Right? Because I, I presume you'll be confronting a lot of sensitive issues and sensitive subjects too. Very, with very powerful people. So it doesn't look like a job description of a safe place. How, how does it feel working in this place? Like, is it intimidating? Like, what's the vibe? 

[00:03:38] Shubhra Sotie: It is definitely intimidating and I would say more, more intimidating being a woman.

[00:03:44] It's definitely harder to be assertive, be firm. You are looked down on, you're thought you're inferior, so you have to even have a more assertive front. You need to go so prepared, so well prepared, uh, compared to the other men in the room. So it's definitely intimidating for that reason. But, uh, you still go, you show up and it, it's intimidating because like you said, you're taking up against really powerful people and, uh, who also have money, who also have political connections.

[00:04:12] While you are a measly environmental lawyer who, but, uh, you know, you learn how to wield your legalese or whatever you've learned in law school. And as a lawyer, uh, to say something that's correct, which is ethical, legal. And you know, you also keep upholding the moral values. But what I do currently as a policy researcher, I do meet a lot of government officials now, and it is definitely more nuanced than you think.

[00:04:42] You go into it thinking, I know that this is a solution, but there are so many, um. People that you have to deal with. I feel like it's easier to deal with wildlife than it's with people, but also it can be a little hopeless because you do something driven by passion and love for something. It's hard to not take it personally and to not feel emotional about this, as opposed to if I was doing it just to make money, but I don't do this just for that.

[00:05:11] So it can be a little bit of a negative, hopeless space. So, yeah. 

[00:05:17] Dinesh: Arjun, you are, you have questions here? I'm sure you do. 

[00:05:21] Arjun: Yeah, I have. I have a done actually. Uh, how does somebody trigger the workflow where they would need a environment lawyer to begin with? What does somebody has to do or not do such that this job becomes some something?

[00:05:38] They need an environment lawyer. How do we invoke you? 

[00:05:41] Shubhra Sotie: Oh, okay. Sure. 

[00:05:43] Arjun: It's a good question. 

[00:05:45] Shubhra Sotie: Okay. That's interesting. Yeah. So for years, the environmental space or the conservation space, uh, I'll say not the environmental space, but uh, conservation has mostly been limited to biologists e. And, you know, they go study a species, they go study a certain landscape, uh, and they do amazing research.

[00:06:07] However, a very, very small number of those get translated into policy. So if they do point out that, you know, this certain plant, uh, that are researched on is invasive and it's creating all these problems in this forest. He publishes this paper, it stays in a journal and it just stays there because a biologist can only do so much.

[00:06:30] They can do research, and of course a lot of biologists also push for change. But what comes as a hindrance there is the legalese, all the jargon, legal jargon that they cannot overcome because their training is in biology and telling you that, Hey, this plant is so bad. We need to get this out. But that's where it ends.

[00:06:48] They need a holding hand from a lawyer. Then take their research, change it into legalese, find a certain act or a certain scheme, or a certain policy under which it fits, and then go to the government and do all the lobbying. And the lawyer will have the legal armor and artillery to fight with the government, which the biologist will not have.

[00:07:12] So you are basically coming in there. You're invoked there and asked to go and talk to the government and when they say, oh no, sorry, this can't happen, which a biologist might, may hear and go back, but we, you know, we stand strong and we say, no, actually there are these provisions in this law and this act and this scheme that you have executed and you are not using it and you can use it to weed out these invasive plans.

[00:07:39] Arjun: A quick follow up on that. Let's say somebody comes up with, uh, an argument from a legal, uh, standpoint saying There are these policies, these laws that allow me to do this. And when it conflicts with environment in a, in a certain way, uh, when it conflicts with conservation or conflicts with any, anything that brings balance, is it safe to say that naturally you will have an upper hand saying that, Hey, because this area is new, where people may not have laws to begin with or precedents to have.

[00:08:16] Shubhra Sotie: Or not at all. The volumes and volumes of environmental law our country has is, is uh, insane. It's, it's a lot. We have very, very robust regulation with environment, environmental laws, entirely pollution conservation, and we've had it since. The British were here and of course it has gone through many changes and some have come post independence as well, but it's definitely not, uh, something that's new.

[00:08:44] There is plenty and plenty of precedents and laws. It's just that the implementation doesn't happen. And the second thing is, of course there is a dearth of policy also for certain issues which people have not cared about. But broadly, we do have a good framework of laws. Of course there can be some, um, changes that can be brought to it, but uh, mostly in its current form in the last decade, we have had, we have good laws.

[00:09:11] It's just lack of administrative will and politic. And so. 

[00:09:16] Yeah, 

[00:09:16] yeah. But, but urgent, there is enough actually to drive a lot of change. We have had a set of, uh, progressive laws since the seventies. It's just that we need to build them better and hold our governments accountable. And I feel like there has been a surge of representations in this field where people are going up and saying, Hey, actually these, this is your.

[00:09:41] Municipal. Municipal in a certain urban area, you have to do this and you can't cut these many trees, which is why this hyper dilution is happening. I feel that is the first thing I feel, which is why 

[00:09:51] Dinesh: interesting. Mm-hmm. You must have also 

[00:09:53] Shubhra Sotie: seen recent movements against dilution of so many environmental acts being amended.

[00:10:00] So many of them in the last few years. 

[00:10:04] Arjun: What does a dilution of a environment law mean, and when does it make sense that you can dilute some, some law that had foresight when you wrote it? 

[00:10:16] Shubhra Sotie: Okay, so for instance, there was a huge protest. This happened around the, around the pandemic, and it was probably one of the largest, it was against the EIA.

[00:10:28] Which is the environmental impact assessment. And I'll not go into the technicalities of it, but, uh, this was a huge movement. And basically the, the EIA or the environmental impact assessment, as the name suggests, is, uh, conducted before a developmental project comes up, you know, forest area. You do that to find out that what kind of effect this will have on the flora, the fauna, the, the entire ecosystem of that place.

[00:10:54] So this is great foresight, right? This, this is great. It's been there since 1996. So it's great that we have this to hold an, a factory or industry or whatever development project is coming up accountable. But uh, to us it's great that we're holding them accountable. But for this person setting up the factory and industry, if you meet the other side, they're like, oh my God, now we have to do this assessment.

[00:11:21] It's such a obstacle to business. In the past decade, we are trying to, you, you have that dilemma of choosing, but I don't think our government feels any dilemma. But you know, they, they choose ease of doing business over ecological safety. So there has been dilution of that impact assessment where a lot of checks that were there, uh, in the impact assessment were taken away.

[00:11:46] And, uh, it, it became much easier to get an environmental clearance. So after an EIA, if it goes well, you get a ec, you get a clearance to then fill trees and uh, whatever, and then construct your factory. So this policy, great policy had been there for 25 years. And, uh, of course it had its, uh, shortcomings like every policy does, which we had Also, everybody has identified.

[00:12:11] Over the course of years that, oh, the EI is not done properly. Most industries do a forged report. It's not accurate, blah, blah, blah. And many people go to court to hold the factories responsible that you know, you have actually presented a fudged, EIA report. Now you're, uh, making it difficult for us to hold people accountable.

[00:12:29] Also, you have diluted it. You're making it easier for them to get a clearance. So you know this, for 25 years, there was some law and now it is being diluted, making it easier for people to. Clear forest and make industries and factories and developmental project.

[00:12:55] Dinesh: I I'm also curious, uh, to know how policy research is carried out. Uh, how does, how does that happen? 

[00:13:01] Shubhra Sotie: Okay, so, so yeah, for this just sparked a story uh, in my head, uh, recently I was in Ladakh for a month and I had gone there to conduct workshops for the Forest Department there. So, you know, wildlife Protection Act, which is, uh, which I, I don't know if you guys have heard of the Wildlife Protection Act.

[00:13:19] It was not applicable in JK. And of course Ladakh then subsequently now, it has become applicable since, you know, article three 70 was applicated, and now a lot of mainland laws have become applicable in Ladakh so I am there conducting this workshop and I'm telling the officers there, I'm telling them how it's wrong.

[00:13:41] Illegal. Uh, it's illegal to have any, any animal article. I was telling them how we find ivory show pieces, which is made out. Elephant tusk and hairbrushes made out Mongo hair and they just keep looking at each other and they say, but everybody in lad has these things. Not of course ivory and all this, but local animals, everybody almost has a fox tail at their house.

[00:14:07] People have, uh, an horns. You know, chiru or Tibetan antelope there, and they're just surprised. No, all of this is in all of our homes. We have everything. We have a wolf skin in our home. We didn't know it's illegal to have them. And you know this, this is how we chance upon policy gaps. So they say this to me, and then I realized that what happened in the rest of India where we were allowed to declare our wildlife products, it never reached.

[00:14:37] Now it never happened in la. So in, in mainland India, before it became illegal and even after it became illegal to have, you know, uh, Shawls made out of wildlife and the ivory products, anything made outta wildlife, uh, before it became illegal, uh, people were allowed an opportunity to declare them. And get a stamp, get a certificate, because as you know, before the act came in or before this whole thing became a problem, everybody had those taxidermy mounts in their house.

[00:15:07] Not everybody, but a lot of people did. And, uh, the rest of the country had an opportunity to do that. But now this law has suddenly become applicable in that part of the country, and they never gotta declare these things. And they've had it for generations. They're not criminals. These people have had it since their grandmother's grandmother got a Fox team.

[00:15:29] So you know, this is the policy gap and you just come across them. When you interact with communities, you're at a workshop and they tell me this, and the first thing I think of is Q. This can lead to criminalization of local people. They, they are not trading it. It's just lying in their house. They think, yo, this antler brings good luck.

[00:15:48] It's superstitious. So they've kept it. They're not trading it. They're not selling it. They have no criminal intention, but it can lead to criminalization because the forest department can now go in, seize these products and prosecute these people. So that is how you know policy gaps are identified. And uh, then you talk to people there and tell them that we need a policy on this.

[00:16:10] We need to allow people in Ladakh also to be able to declare that I've had this folks deal or this antler from four generations. They are not going to trade it or anything. So it's important to have an inventory. So that is something on with the government there. Okay, 

[00:16:29] Dinesh: so, so who do you speak to to kind of, uh, have a corrective measure for this?

[00:16:33] Shubhra Sotie: The person to speak to would be, in this instance, would be the chief file life board, uh, of that current state. But since it's a union territory, you have to then do more, uh, digging and, uh, to find out who would be the right person. Enforce this to have this policy. So since it's a union territory, you go into the law, you find out that it's not a state then who is responsible and most laws will underline who it's that we need to speak to.

[00:17:03] So the left in general, in, in case of a union territory is, is in charge. You find that out and then you reach out to them. But first you go to the head of the forest department and you do the clean from there.

[00:17:24] Arjun: So a few months before speaking with Rah Dineh sat down with Sum Bindu, director of Wildlife Programs at Humane Society International India. Now, sum was part of a research study called The Million Death Study. It focused on snake bite related deaths in India. Back then, the belief was that maybe about 2300 people died from snake bites every year.

[00:17:52] But this study kind of blew that number apart. The real numbers were far, far worse. There were about 58,000 deaths every year. That's roughly six people every single hour. And the strange thing is. This was all like a silent epidemic, barely noticed outside those communities. In that episode, he speaks about the lack of treatment, the cultural stigma, whole systems that just look away, and he stresses something important.

[00:18:25] If snake Bite could be recognized as a notifiable disease. It would finally be forced into official health records. And if you want the full story, I would really recommend listening to the Innocence Theory episode, snake Bites, and the Fight for Rural Health. That's a deeply interesting one. Now here's the impact.

[00:18:48] Thanks to the collective work of Soman Subra and their team. The state of Karnataka acted on this in February, 2024. Snakebite is now officially a notifiable disease in the state. Every single case, whether it is outpatient, inpatient, or fatal, has to be reported. This, the public health experts called it a landmark decision, a model that rest of the country could follow.

[00:19:16] Now, back to this episode in this conversation. We ask RA what it really took to make that shift, the frustrations, the resistance that comes out of nowhere, and how through all of that, the process actually felt.

[00:19:38] Dinesh: Yeah, so Ra, we are covering this snake bite probably in depth. We've spoken to. Suman most likely will also be speaking to Karthik, who's work in the IIIC side, where when I chatted with Suman, he, he gave the broad strokes of the problem and where the knowledge gap is and what are the various places where their intervention was.

[00:19:59] And one very interesting thing that he mentioned was that that snake bites were made a notifiable disease in Karnataka. And the credit rightly goes to you, your team, Samantha, and all of you guys for that. So we are curious to know how a policy research researcher approaches such a challenge and how do you strategize when taking on issues like this?

[00:20:23] Could you like walk us through the, the story behind the conversation and actions that that led to this decision? 

[00:20:30] Shubhra Sotie: Basically, a notifiable disease is simply something that is legally. Mandated for public health workers and public health, uh, bodies to, uh, notify to declare. For instance, when the whole, when COVID happened, I was hooked to this OME website, which was reporting the number of cases.

[00:20:51] So basically COVID was a notifiable disease, so there was data being collected on the incidences of COVID cases. Now snake bite is such an epidemic, uh, in our country. We probably have the highest, and I'm sure Sum has spoken plenty about the snake bite burden this country has. And he would tell me about it all the time.

[00:21:11] And to me, I felt like it was very doable. And, uh, when I joined Samantha and, and the story behind it is just this, that we were, you know. Talking about it. And I kept telling Samantha that this is so easy, we can do this. And he was like, yeah, you think it's a low hanging fruit? I like hundred percent. And we started, uh, off with just this joking optimism of, yeah, we'll get it done next week.

[00:21:34] Next week she will have it notified. And I was like, yeah, sum. We go get it done next month. And this is how this optimism started. And. It was just the drive behind this was just to have it notifiable so that whenever an incident happens, at least it's appropriate. We have some data on it because there is such a dearth of data and that is, you know, that is a, a difficult day for environmental lawyer or a policy researcher.

[00:21:59] If you don't have the data to back up your arguments to make it more persuasive, it's hard to do the second, third, fourth, any step. I felt like we could move this. I had created a very, very exhaustive list of things I will do to convince the government that it is notifiable. And I had this very waterproof structure created.

[00:22:24] Of course, it's immense health and, uh, what it ended up being with just one paper. So that is how policy work in India is. It is not structured. Most policy change is. Very ad hoc, very capable. Oh, let's give them this, then sit in their office, drink nine cups of chai, uh, dive diabetes, giving level chai, uh, sugar syrup, and state driven state to, so this policy advocacy document that we drafted was basically outlining the problem of snakebite in car.

[00:22:59] And, uh, you know, there has been a private study which has given numbers of, uh, again, so must have cited. I took the heat map out of it and put it in that advocacy document to show what the burden is like now, that, that could be it, because that is accessible information. However, as, as a policy researcher to make persuasive items to advocate for this, you have to go really deep into it.

[00:23:26] So, you know, you extract the map of chromatica from it. You look at the, where the heat map is really hot and uh, you extract these districts and then, you know, I go into even deeper research to find out you, okay, what is happening in the other gu? Why is it so high? And you don't keep it to sneak by. You also look at these districts that are highlighted.

[00:23:48] What is the primary occupation that people do? So, you know, Bel.

[00:23:58] I don't know how to say it correctly, but these were districts that were growing up in Karnataka. So you go even deeper and you see how you find that most population is, uh, invested and is working in agriculture are farmers. So these are food producers. So this is not just a public health issue, but the policy document has to say, you know, these are our food producers, these are farmers.

[00:24:23] Then you say that, oh, actually, this is a rural population. They're basically the foot soldiers of our country. They are frontline people, and these people are affected the most that way. You diversify it from just seeing that it's a forest department issue because snakes are involved. You try to bring in as many departments as possible.

[00:24:44] And you say. It's not only a public health issue, it's a rural population. It's, it's a, it's a farmer rights issue. 

[00:24:51] Dinesh: If you bring in more departments, wouldn't it make it even more messy, like for you to work with? 

[00:24:59] Shubhra Sotie: Um, not, not really. In terms of the policy document, it was important to just highlight all the issues.

[00:25:07] Dinesh: So this document, who are you presenting this document to? 

[00:25:12] Shubhra Sotie: We'll take you to the Health Department of the state. So that is my role. I find out under what act will this be declared? The notifiable if, if it is the Epidemic's Diseases Act of Tica 2020. So I find that out. I, so you basically figure out under what law and for what reasons should this be notifiable.

[00:25:35] Karnataka had also recently declared re's. Uh, notifiable disease and do, you know, juxtapose it with next, next to snake bite and say, oh, the cases of rabies are even lesser than snake bite. Now you have no reason to not have it notifiable. So, uh, that was the document we created, but it is, I feel like it is maybe 40% the document, the rest of it is entire month pushing the, taking this document and pushing it at the department.

[00:26:06] Knocking doors and drinking child. So that is a lot of policy work. How, how it gets done, 

[00:26:13] Dinesh: what's the nature of those conversations? Are they denials? Because finally the problem is sort of getting addressed at a conversational level. Right. Yeah. So what's the nature of these conversations? 

[00:26:27] Shubhra Sotie: I'll definitely appreciate the Karnataka Health Department for this.

[00:26:32] Most stakeholders are not this receptive. We have tried doing this for other states, and they are not as receptive as the department here is and the officers here are. And it was quite, of course, it took a lot of work, but I feel like conversationally and in terms of the officers we spoke to, they were very receptive and they were very welcoming.

[00:26:54] They were happy to receive an argument, uh, structure to it. I had also created a, a, a notification document as to when you declare it, what the notification looks like, even that we had drafted and given them. So all they had to do is backspace, say, snakebit is a notifiable disease. The structure was already there, so they were very happy to see that, oh, this can be done and this can be done at no cost.

[00:27:20] Declaring something notifiable will not cost anything to us. So I, I've had a very difficult, challenging time dealing with other state departments, but Karnataka was highly receptive and willing to take this up quickly, and then became the first state, which did this. 

[00:27:39] Arjun: I have a question and I, I don't know.

[00:27:42] I feel little, it's a paradox. The goal of this ex exercise is to get the governments and the authorities not to make snake bite as a notifiable disease and to prove that you had to collect data to say that this is now such a large. Case that you better make it notifiable in order to get data. You are now trying to get data.

[00:28:10] Dinesh: Yeah. Yes. A chicken and egg situation kind of thing. Yeah. 

[00:28:12] Arjun: Shouldn't it be that the government is now saying, let all diseases be notifiable. We have a live dashboard of what is now an epidemic pandemic situation. And then shouldn't the concern be let's have the infrastructure when somebody walks into the clinic, somebody walks in with the case reported.

[00:28:33] We just record it in a central wave, which is accessible and therefore the study becomes easier for future generations to happen. You if, even if it is not now. 

[00:28:46] Shubhra Sotie: Yeah, that that's a very, that's true. Ideally, if that would happen, it would be very nice and we would be able to keep tab of every disease, any sort of outbreak that happens and you know that there must be even more things that are going unseen and this, this has been a problem for years, how we've heard of so many instances of snake bite and how it was never recorded.

[00:29:08] Never given. He too, when you think of even animal conflict people, the first animal that comes to mind is tiger or an elephant. Nobody thinks of snakes, but it is the largest conflict we have in the country. But unfortunately, Arjun, our, our hospitals and our, you know, public health machinery is not that equipped to take this on.

[00:29:29] Even having it notified is actually, uh, the smallest step in this fight because now going to hospitals and making sure people actually declare it and actually record it is another challenge. When you go to hospitals, it is hard to find somebody who does this. A nodal person is doing this, and you may find that actually diseases that have been notifiable may not have been recorded properly so far.

[00:29:55] So that is the next fight you fight. You figure out a way that it is digitized and uh, figuring out what are the obstacles in that. Ideally, it would be nice if all of this was reported, but highly understaffed and highly under. Personal 

[00:30:13] Dinesh: how, how do you go about working in the next phase of making sure hospitals are reported?

[00:30:18] What is the kind of initiatives that are there on that site? The reason I'm asking is also like there are, uh, uh, many of the listeners who are design students who do design research work, they can take up, uh, such projects where, what, what, what kind of systemic change at an administration, at, at a hospital level that would, that would need for such kind of effort to be executed.

[00:30:43] Shubhra Sotie: Okay. So there is just an inquiry system at place right now, but my next step now is to. Do the other paperwork and documentation and figure out now that it's notifiable what policy change or what healthcare facilities the law can provide. 'cause it's mandatory. So this kind of enforcement is something the people on ground are doing.

[00:31:04] It going to PHCs is going to hospitals and figuring out the reporting and seeing the numbers. So, you know, those are the next steps for me to ensure that now hospitals. And the medical infrastructure in the country is obligated to now pull their socks out. Now it's notifiable. You cannot make an excuse.

[00:31:28] You have to have certain policies, budget allocations in place. So that this problem is fought properly. 

[00:31:36] Dinesh: So who are you speaking to for this then? Who would be the people who you'll be interfacing with for your next steps? 

[00:31:43] Shubhra Sotie: This again brings me back to the whole, you know, the messy situation. Like you brought up that, you know, having more departments be a part of this Karnataka, again, brilliant state that they are willing to get started on the state action plan before, I don't know if any other state is doing this.

[00:32:00] And, uh, we had, uh, we organized with them, uh, a, a stakeholders meet, uh, to create an state action plan. And it was lovely to see that it was not restricted to just the forest department and the health department, but the labor department was there, the social development department was there, the tribal and rural development department was there.

[00:32:23] So, you know, just to make sure that. It is not just the forest department's problem or the health department's problem, but the demographic that is being affected. It's actually other governments also that can be held accountable. And where it doesn't become messy is when all these brains come together and people come together.

[00:32:42] A lot of them were sharing how, wait, we actually have this scheme under our department, which is underused and we can use it to make this component of the state action plan. Departments are allocated budget year after year. So we are not just burdening one department with the, the funds, the budgeting, but it's coming out of the corpus of various departments who are responsible for the wellbeing of rural population or Europe, the welfare of farmers and these other departments.

[00:33:14] So this is where it becomes very fruitful because. Then suddenly the light bulb goes off for many departments to say, oh, actually, you know what? We can do this also. And then the next step would be to hold them accountable to actually use these schemes and actually, uh, follow through. I think it'll take many, many years to fully see the fruits of it being a notifiable disease.

[00:33:36] It was the first. Small steps we took, and now we are meeting everybody in one room, in one place and urging them to work on an action plan. So we finally looked at, uh, as not a wildlife problem. 

[00:33:52] Dinesh: Yeah. This is, this is just so inspiring to hear, you know, just getting so many people in one room and, uh, I'm trying to get them to, uh, uh, collaborate, uh, just to solve a very genuine problem.

[00:34:05] Shubhra Sotie: Absolutely. 

[00:34:07] Dinesh: I presume that these interactions are sort of like workshops, right? Are these workshops designed? How, yeah. How do you go about it? 

[00:34:16] Shubhra Sotie: Usually with these stakeholder meetings, we create an agenda. We supply an agenda to all the stakeholders that are coming. You obviously let the important people do the opening ceremony and the pleasantries and all that.

[00:34:29] And uh, after that there, there's a set agenda and every department gets a say in it. Everybody's allowed to speak and share what could be done, how they understand this issue and what would be their contribution. So as an agenda set, everybody's given time to speak and we speak to it. We make sure everybody has a voice, is able to share their feedback for this.

[00:34:58] And, uh, it's basically, yeah, it's, it's like a workshop with everybody. With everybody speaking, discussing a lot of important things actually happen over the tea break, the lunch, break, the breakfast. So we, the, we make sure there's catering. There is a lot of food because often a lot of work gets done over in formal lunches, uh, during these workshops because an officer or a government officer giving a mic may not speak as candidly as he would over, over lunch with.

[00:35:31] So we do pay a lot of attention to making sure there's food and setting an agenda, and a lot of things come out actually at these stakeholder meetings. I am there for one policy issue and I end up meeting so many people who can help me figure out a lot of other things.

[00:35:50] Arjun: At this point, there are three things worth noticing, maybe even subtle learnings. From what Shukra saying to me. It sounded so fresh to hear her say, I'm going to keep the government and the people accountable now that snake bytes are officially notifiable. That statement alone carried so much weight about this profession because so often we hear the call for accountability.

[00:36:14] We all need someone to hold the buck, but this felt different. It felt like there is a person we can actually go to. And from the lens of sustainability, this felt fresh. The truth is a lot happens behind the scenes. A candid lunch can spark a big change as profound as a new legislation, and that kind of brings us.

[00:36:39] To the big question, which is even when you think you got a solution, how do you actually get people to hear you?

[00:36:52] Dinesh: I'll ask a very raw question. Why should they even listen to you? Why should they come together? I mean, what's the authority you have or how do you get that ownership? 

[00:37:00] Shubhra Sotie: That is the, a really good question. Yeah. So this, this takes years and years of work of, you know, building relationships with departments, showing work and, uh, to, to get to a point where you can actually advocate for policy.

[00:37:15] You do have to show a lot of on ground work you've done to show that, you know, I have gotten my hands dirty. I've actually been doing this for a long time, and a lot of credit for that. He been doing it for a, has. A really significant number of things he can show and present to them. And it's also the constant showing up with the correct data, with the correct research, making very strong presentations to them.

[00:37:41] And our people are such that we, uh, socialize and we take any sort of help and research quite well. So it, it does take a lot of relationship building and showing up constantly. Not. Uh, not giving up. I have, uh, sat down at a forest department office for four to five plus hours, and I've been given chai after shy, and I have ended up not meeting the officer.

[00:38:06] I'm there to. But you still show up. You keep showing up and make sure you leave a note and you make sure you leave a crisp version of your research that this is for. Sir, please. They did not go. I say, you make these kind of requests that please slip it under his and tell, tell them that I was here. So you, it takes a lot of years of doing this and, uh, making presentations, making sure that.

[00:38:29] You just show up with the right information and tell them constantly what you can offer. A lot of departments are very happy to give you their work. They're like, yeah, you do our work good. You can do all this ticket. So you know who, who does not like having their work then for free. But you have to get authority and to have this kind of ownership.

[00:38:48] It takes a lot of relationship building and groundwork, which Sun has done thankfully, for us to be able to show up with say that, and that gives us credibility. 

[00:39:00] Dinesh: Yeah, I think we, I have a couple of questions, but I think we've, I've taken so much of your time. Sorry. The stories are so, so in this interaction, uh, communicating about science seems to be an essential component of it, right?

[00:39:16] What does the science have to say on this? And this, for some reason, the science communication seems to, uh, not for some reason, for obvious reasons. Uh, science communication is happening at various levels right now. If we have to go to the local community who's using an exotic animal skin to create, uh, a music instrument, and now if we need intervention at that level, then there is a science communication that comes into picture.

[00:39:39] So in your experience. What's the role of science communication in conversations around policy research? 

[00:39:50] Shubhra Sotie: My area of law is so niche and I could not function without knowing the biology and ology of things. It is, it plays a very, very important role and sure is somewhere I also struggle because my training is not in biology.

[00:40:04] At all reading research papers, scientific research papers can be extremely hard for somebody who's, you know, not a science student, uh, just so is a law, 

[00:40:14] Dinesh: uh, document 

[00:40:16] Shubhra Sotie: an agreement. Exactly. I was just about to, yeah. The next thing I was about to say was this. It's similar to how a biologist wouldn't be able to drive some policy change because they can't interpret increase.

[00:40:30] So there is the this gap where I also struggle with, where I don't often find science communicated in a way which I only person can understand to then convert it into policy. It takes a lot of talking to researchers and understanding data. Actually a lot of double research goes in the work I do because I have to study the science, biology, and ecology and zoology of something to then find the law that will complement it and then bridge it and then present it to the government.

[00:41:02] So science communication a hundred percent, plays a very big part, and I wish it was more accessible than it is currently. I wish people were sharing, biologists were sharing more often. What results of their studies are, I wish they were showing up for these kind of engagements, you know, podcasts. But we are such a community of nerds and introverts.

[00:41:24] I feel like we just keep it to ourselves, not me. I am a raging extrovert, I'm sure, as you can tell, but a lot of biologists, they do not, uh, share these things because I have picked a lot of my policy related. Work from conversations. And, you know, I, I, I do find that challenging, it plays a huge role and I am not able to find a lot of, uh, proof and evidence that would be legible to a government.

[00:41:51] So scientifically, it's very well done, you know, in graphs and stats and maps, but our government officers do not have the time to understand these kind of, uh, things. So if it could be dumbed down for me lawyer, and then I could further take it to a government official, that would be very, very useful for me.

[00:42:13] And I wish more biologists try to learn more about policy change so that they could drive it themselves. They could do research and not just publish it, but drive. So there is a sort of, uh, fatigue I feel there. Also, when I interact with biologists, I tell them that, you know, the lawyer does not have to do it all.

[00:42:31] If you see a problem with it, you can write to your government, you can write to the forest department and say, Hey, this is not right. But usually what happens is there's an influx of. People will read the news. There will be an influx of messages I get. They're like, what can you do about this? And I'm like, we can all band together and do something about it.

[00:42:51] But the current icons in conservation who have actually fought tooth and nail the government, gone to courts, I don't see it any anymore. Younger people or my generation, of course there's activism, but in the Department of Biologists and that whole, I don't see it. My own friends, I'm friends with many biologists.

[00:43:08] And recently there is a wolf cuing order that happened in where they said that catch them or cull them, shoot at site order. People were reaching out to me saying, what can you do, Shera? Can you write to, I'm like, you can also write, you can also send a strongly worded letter to the forest department, find out who is the person to write, or I can identify the person, but we can all write to them.

[00:43:32] And see that this is illegal or this is wrong, or there's a, my science, my research says there's a better way to deal with wolves because you have researched on it. I have not. I, I wish there was more of that and we could just bring people to. 

[00:43:48] Dinesh: Yeah, I think that that kind of leads to my last question.

[00:43:52] There are like a lot of ways that, that make a change in our human behavior. Like education is one media environmental influences, and there are like a lot of them, policy and laws are, are one of the ways on, uh, that bring about change in human behavior. Right now I'm, I, I, uh, I'm sticking to traffic rules because it's, it's just a policy, right?

[00:44:19] And it seems to work in most of the cases for us, and, and giving, uh, the situation Right now, there is a lot of change in terms of how we need to go about our usual things because of this whole climate change issue. Policy seems to be one effective way of bringing about a change. I'm curious to know how effective this approach is and where does it fall Short.

[00:44:47] Shubhra Sotie: I feel like, uh, this kind of one size of, of fits all may not work. You know, for, for instance, when I talk about wildlife crime, also, I think you just putting people, catching them, putting them in jail, uh, really does nothing to deter people. Wildlife trafficking, we always look at the supply side, uh, where it's coming from, who is sending it, who might be the kingpin, what are the, what is, what is the bracket look like?

[00:45:17] Who are the players involved? But we rarely see the demand side of it. Who are these people who demand it? What are their motivations for demanding these things? And can we bring behavioral change? Like you said, I honestly don't think it works to put people in jail because often the person you're catching is a mole, is somebody who had a very small role to play, probably from a marginalized community, does did not know this was illegal.

[00:45:43] And actually the main customer who has a lot of wealth, who is getting this will go away spot free. A person may be resorting to wildlife crime or hunting because they are poor and they did not know an alternative. This was an easy way to make money. A lot of wildlife hunting went up, uh, during the pandemic because people, if you remember, did not have access to rice, did not have access to food.

[00:46:08] So there was a surge in killing of wild bores to consume. So, you know, there is such a nuance. To this, you cannot take the ban approach with it. I feel like there is more education that has to be done with climate change or anything, uh, related to conservation. I think it's this, this inherent feeling of, uh, you know, saving or caring about the environment and the nature.

[00:46:38] I think it's just taken out from us at the point where we become corporate slaves. I wish it was instilled more. In school, in children, because most of my friends, my generation do not care about this. It's not their priority. I feel like the education system also fails there, instilling this, uh, childlike wonder we all once had, but it was, you know, taken, killed out of us.

[00:47:00] So I feel like law and policy does not work for this kind of work. I feel like there has to be more education and awareness to tell people that. Mm-hmm. This may have a, a long term effect on the environment and wildlife doing, but it may sound completely contrary to everything I said. Yeah, yeah. That's kind.

[00:47:25] Dinesh: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:47:27] Shubhra Sotie: Yeah, I feel like it has to be, of course we it, it has to be nipped in the bud. It has to be, there has to be systemic and society level change that is to be brought before on the foot, but it is. So once I am also constantly in this conflict of whether to just be like, okay, no humans, or to be like, okay, humans have more compactions.

[00:47:48] Dinesh: This is a great insight to have from a person who is working in policy research. 'cause generally when as design researchers or design thinkers, we kind of make this a system map and like, you know what, this has to be address at a policy level. You know, like we kind of offload it to that section. And safely assume that if a particular law is brought in or if it has a policy level intervention, then this problem is taken care.

[00:48:14] Uh, but yeah, it's great to hear you say, you know that there is this, this other side to it. 

[00:48:21] Shubhra Sotie: Yeah. It really doesn't work because human behavior is so volatile, you cannot predict it. Uh, they, they banned firecrackers in Delhi. People drove to Guan and bought firecrackers, so the band did nothing. In the same way.

[00:48:33] There are so many policies which were set out to do a certain thing, but it did not do it. Because we did not think of human behavior before we set out to do it. We were just like, okay, fine. If people are cutting trees to make this factory or this industry, let's ask them to plant trees somewhere else.

[00:48:50] How will that help? You're still, you know, uh, decimating a forest in a certain place, which is a very popular policy in conservation. It is so bad. You are, somebody's cutting a tree here and you are planting trees in jargon. How that, does that help Antarctica? So there is such a lack of signs. In our policy, and of course taking account for behavior of human beings.

[00:49:13] It's, yeah, yeah. But it has to be more nuanced. It has been very just, you know, straight 

[00:49:21] Dinesh: sh this has been such a great conversation. It's fantastic speaking to Yousra, and thanks for joining the podcast and I think you should come to our show more often with your concerns, with your activism, and, and we'll be ready to hear.

[00:49:48] Arjun: We had a great time speaking to Shubhra for over a couple of hours, and this conversation with Shubhra showed us what it means to really stand firm. By clarity through policies and really setting precedents as we constantly evolve into what we can only hope to be a better tomorrow, but maybe, maybe there's a new pattern emerging with AI and technology.

[00:50:15] Advancing and global policy shifting progress and sustainability are battling with sharpened weapons. Maybe the real question is, how are these forces reshaping how we think about ethics? Empathy and how tolerably we live with each other. That's a thought for another episode, Dinesh and I look forward to inquiring on that more on our upcoming series on ethics, the new trends, and should we be worried.

[00:50:48] And if you're still here with us, thank you so much for joining us. Stay tuned for more.