Chris Brooks: if you had unlimited resources, if you had unlimited ability to do anything you want to do and it was vested in one person or a person were to gain that ability, do you think that that person would be more or less ethical?

Intro

Arjun: If you were to imagine for a second a world in which everyone had abundant resources, then would you really need the checks and balances, the rules or the governance system that make up the fabric of society? Or would you say that the rules for ethics or being ethical take on a different shape altogether?

This is the core question for today's episode. This is part two of a continuing conversation. We've been in discussion with Professor Chris Brooks and his students, Zofia Rosenfield, Noah Fillion, and Grace Clark on the topic of ethics and what does it mean to be ethical in today's world. Chris has been teaching for over two decades on ethics, leadership, and philosophy.

And if this topic interests you and you haven't caught up to the previous conversation, we leave a link in the description. Today's conversation is more about accountability and how does accountability and power. Interact. We inquire this through the point of view of students and what they think about ethics.

Once again, you're listening to Innocence Theory and this is the inflection point series I.

Part 1 Recap

Arjun: If we had unlimited access to money or resources, uh, or if you had the chance to say, whatever we ask for, we can get, and not just me even you can get that simultaneously without having to battle it out.

Would we need ethics as, as, as a, as a general constraint for communication or transactions? Uh, would, would ethics matter differently then? 

Noah: Well, that's pretty interesting to take a look at right away because, um, if we interpret what you've asked Arjun from the standpoint of what would we, you know, what, what would happen if we had unlimited resources or what would happen if, um, we had the ability to kind of live in a world where, um, we would know what the right, you know, judgment is all the time because remember, many of the, the most famous Phil philosophical, um, minds in the world have argued that perhaps the greatest evil is ignorance.

Chris Brooks: It's, it's the fact we don't know. And that gets us into trouble. 'cause if we fully actually understood the ramifications of what the decisions we made or the situations we were in, we would probably make better choices. But we don't. So there's this kinda lack of, of knowledge or ignorance part that plays a part in that.

And I wonder, you know, when it comes to all of the resources we could have, or all the problems that we could solve, you know, it'd be ideal to have that situation. Would we need ethics? Would we need any of these discussions about what's right or wrong? Interesting question, but I don't have an answer for that.

But I do have an answer from this standpoint, which might be an interesting way to, to sort of twist your question a bit more, which ironically enough, these three will have to answer soon enough. So we might as well even get them started on this, which is, if you had unlimited power, if you had unlimited resources, if you had unlimited ability to do anything you want to do and it was vested in one person or a person were to gain that ability, do you think that that person would be more or less ethical?

Ring of Gyges

Chris Brooks: And there is a great short story, called The Ring of Gyges which the great ancient,Greek philosopher Plato. Wrote as a statement of that, which does correlate directly with the Lord of the Rings, the great movie series, which is if you had a magical ring and you put it on and you could be invisible and you could get away with doing either good or bad, but get away where you wouldn't be, you know, at any point accountable for anything you decided to do.

'Cause no one would know it was you.

Do you think people would be good people? Or do you think people would be not the good people? And so that's a place to really consider it and people are really torn on that. And you know, it's been thousands and thousands of years people have discussed the short story and I'm sure in other cultures there have been similar stories that have been brought up.

And I think that would be very interesting. Zofia what do you think about that? Do you think that people predominantly would be con, could you, would you believe that people would be good? Or do you think that people would be bad and And don't give out? Don't give the easy answer, which is depends on the person.

Well, that's obvious, right? But what would be the factors that would de that would create that? So Zofia and then Noah, and then Grace. There you go. Now you're on. 

Zofia: I like just in general want to believe that people would be good. And I do think that people would be good because I think the majority of people, even if they tried to like not be good, that would like, in the end not result well for themselves in a way like that would come back to them and that would come back to society and then nothing could be accomplished.

And I think also like, um, we talked about in class George Herbert Mead and like the fact that if no one's watching, most people are are, are still gonna do. What societal norms tell them to do, whether that's conscious or an unconscious like decision. So I think that people would, for the most part, choose to do like, at least what they think is the right thing.

Noah: I agree, especially since like as it's been said before, your actions have consequences. Even if we view like society as a whole right now, like we do live in like an awfully self-serving way and it like it's destroying the environment and now if we don't like, make significant changes to the way that we're living as a society, like we are going to die out.

And I feel like if you apply that to a single person, it's just like if you have this absolute power and you make these decisions that are like inherently bad or destructive, even if it like serves you in the, like the short term, it is gonna come back in the long term and hurt you. And I think you're gonna be.

influenced to make better decisions because of that. But there's also, I think it's important to note that there is this saying like "Absolute power, corrupts Absolutely". And it's just an interesting concept to think about because it's like if you do have that much power, there is gonna be a constant temptation to just use it for selfish desires, I think no matter who you are.

So there is also a point to be made for the other side.

Grace: Yeah, I agree with what Noah said at the end. I think that no matter who it is that ends up with that power, they would end up corrupted by it. Because I mean, you see it on smaller scales like every day with people who are like celebrities for example, when they like get more money and they get more like well known eventually like scandals come out about them.

And there are very few celebrities who are like genuinely good people that you can like trust from what we see on the outside. And so I think like that would end up. Going to a scale that obviously hasn't really been seen before and there aren't like global superpowers who are run by like good in a sense.

Like if that makes any sense. I feel like if you have that on such a high level, it wouldn't work out. Yeah. 

The Online Comment section and negativity

Dinesh: I feel, um,if we end up being anonymous for certain activity, then I think people are not going to be so good. Like, I think the internet comment section is, is, is an example of what anonymity can do. Uh, and probably in social media space, the whole idea of stalking, the amount of stalking that happens.

Zofia: Like say if Facebook had this feature of, showing you who visited your profile. Then the number of people, I mean, I think the pattern would be very different and the kind of traffic would be very different, Okay. I actually think like this, like obviously Chris was like, you can't just cop out and say it depends on the person, but like it does each individual thing depends on the person. So you have to look at like the majority of people. And I think like negative comments, even with like not knowing who it's from, there's so many more people who saw whatever they saw and decided not to leave a negative comment or even decided to leave a positive comment.

And the negativity is just what our brain latches onto. So I think that like a lot of time, whatever the negative thing is pulled into the limelight, but there's so many other people who made a better choice than that.

Noah: I think one important aspect is that like with anonymity, other people can't hold you accountable for your actions 'cause they don't know it was you.

But you can still be held accountable by the consequences of your actions. So I guess it would really depend on what actions are being taken, like what the person does. But if they do something like, for example, that would destroy the climate, like they're gonna be held accountable by that action. If they have this absolute power and it's gonna come back and it's gonna hurt them.

But on the other hand, if it's something like small and inconsequential, they're not gonna be.

Grace: Yeah, I agree with that. And also with the negative comments, I think that when one person does it, the flood gates are opened and anyone feels like they can just say whatever they want and. Yeah, slippery slope. And so like, and I don't think that positivity spreads as quickly or as easily, sadly. but I think that's a lot of why we see it on smaller scales at such a high level, unfortunately.

The Ethical Implications of AI

Arjun: what would be some areas where, the need for being ethical is now high in 2026. you're free to point out any events around the world. Any things that you feel are happening around you that you feel should be different.

Noah: I think a big one specifically for like 2026 and moving forward is going to be AI. And it's like a big topic, but like one of the problems is like there's like these whole like plants where they need like cooling and it takes like a ton of water and sometimes it's like it affects like for example, the electricity bills of like nearby towns, like considerably.

And then there's also the whole aspect of like free thought and it's not necessarily restricting that, but people having a reliance on that. Like there was this one person who basically used it for a prescription, ended up dying 'cause it told him to take the wrong type of drug. And it's just stuff like that and like moderating the usage and also knowing what cases to use it in and what cases are like really improper for its usage is gonna be very important to understand.

Grace: Yeah, I agree with that. 'cause I think a lot of people just kind of use AI and like chat GPT very like randomly for everything. Like looking up words when you have so many other resources and they just turn to that because it's so new and different. But I think that we actually need to tell people like how bad it can be, both for like the environment, but also like free thinking and like creativity.

'cause a lot of people just don't understand it and if like it continues, it could be really bad for both aspects. 

Political Power and Ethical Responsibility

Zofia: And I think another thing that's important is just understanding power and understanding. Like, like. Not to be controversial, but like politics is so important because you have a relatively small number of people and we have like checks and balances in the U just specifically talking about the US.

Like even though we have different systems set up so that there's lots of people representing your average, like US citizen, it's, or like even just people in the us, it's like such a small number of people compared to what the actual population is. And we all have such different experiences. It's like you're trying to put such a small like person in a box where it's like known.

You can't actually represent every single person, if that makes sense. And I think it's just important for the people in power to understand that and to think ethically when um, they're making decisions that will impact so many people.

Grace: Also, especially, um, right now, like you mentioned, checks and balances for a second, but like right now, a lot of those aren't actually being used, just genuinely.

So I think that's also important. Having a government that sticks to the constitution and sticks to what it says it's gonna do, is also a lot of the ethical, reasoning behind it.

Zofia: And it just gets back to actively trying to be a good person and not being self-serving in every single thing that you do.

Because it's, it's knowing your responsibility to the people that you're representing.

Arjun: Does it feel hard? Does it have this angle of being responsible is harder than not thinking about it.

Grace: I think that. It's the opposite. But I think especially with people in power and people who have a lot of money, they would rather do the easier thing of telling people what's gonna get them, like in their mind, it's easier to just get themselves more money and more power instead of actually helping people because what they think of as good is very self-centered and very like good for themselves.

So even though it's, it seems easier to just help people or be kind like, it seems like such an easy thing for them. Like it's switched in their brains, like when you have a lot of money and power, I guess. So it's like they kind of flip that around and I don't really know why.

Noah: I think it's very easy, especially for some people to try to ignore certain ethical dilemmas. But I also think like, especially with media and social media is especially, everything's just so up in your face that it's really hard to not think about it even if you don't want to. And I also think it's generally better to think about it, even if it's something that you might not want to.

Because like, I mean, A) reconsidering something like Descartes said can help you get like a better view of what it actually truly is or how you actually truly feel about something. But it's also just being able to process that yourself and understand how you personally feel instead of taking an opinion from somebody else and spouting it out as your own.

Arjun: you mentioned AI and you mentioned, amount of water it takes and, and the resources it takes. on a ChatGPT query, let's say you land a huge hyping job at OpenAI and you are, you are now going to be working there and you're, you're now responsible for building the next version of of ChatGPT

Would you, would you take it.

Noah: I don't think I would, like completely ignoring the fact that like, that's not the field I want to go into. Just like upon like the moral standpoint of AI and I think. The more we progress it, the more problems are gonna arise. I'm not necessarily talking about like Roko's Basilisk or any thought experiments like that, but more so just like an over-reliance aspects.

And though it is going to get better the more we improve it, there's also gonna be more of a drive to rely on it. And I just think contributing towards that is something that I would personally do.

Zofia: I think I would take the job like, like if you don't take the job someone else's and then maybe you are in a position to like redirect how it goes and how it's used. It's gonna happen regardless of if you're involved or not. And I like, I obviously having my beliefs think that my beliefs are good.

So if I'm in a position to like help kind of guide where that goes, then I would take it.

Grace: Yeah, I don't think I would take it. Um, also like, no, I don't really wanna go into that field, but even with just the money aspect or the opportunity, I think I would rather kind of work against it in a way.

So I don't think I would try to work with it. Like Z You said you would try to like guide it a certain way. I kind of am at a standpoint where I would rather just get rid of it altogether, even though that's probably not really possible at this point because of how far it's gone. But yeah,

Arjun: So professor, it looks like, Grace is saying that world's better without ChatGPT

Chris Brooks: Old school.

Zofia: I think we would all agree with that.

Arjun: what's your take on this, professor?

The Crisis of Truth and Leadership

Chris Brooks: Um, well, in answer to not just that dilemma, but in terms of what you guys were referring to or talking to before, which is what are some of the bigger issues in the world that are troubling? It kind of for me falls into two categories that I think are really problematic right now and I'm genuinely concerned about it.

The first one is the lack of issue or the lack of, uh, truth, and therefore then the lack of trust in the world. we have a serious crisis around that, which is everyone's sort of espousing whatever truth is convenient for them and using information to sort of back that up and argue their case for why they are correct.

And it seems to be creating divides across the world on this and, you know, what is actually the truth. And I think we have a real problem, which goes back to knowledge and wisdom and critical thinking around what constitutes a good enough concept of what something is or what we believe in as people.

And, you know, we used to argue about beliefs and things, but right now it's, it's getting into conversation around what we believe to be concrete things. You know, things that science, math, things that, that were held to be true. Um, you know, because, uh, we understood that. And so there's a real crisis around truth and the failure of some people to realize that opinion is not truth, opinion is "thanks for sharing your opinion."

It it's a viewpoint. And so we have to figure out how to get back to that. And I think that's a huge issue in the world at the moment. And that leads me into the second thing that is, is enormously large because it's causing huge chasms between people, not just in political realms, but also culturally, around the idea of what constitutes good leader.

Uh, and so there's a huge issue around that. Uh, which then brings us to the conversation around what's the role of democracy? And, democratic structures of any kind are being challenged, by more authoritarian. ideologies and people are accepting that and rolling with it because they think it's in their best interest.

And I, I always find that to be really scary when we stop thinking about these things. And we start to allow the powers that be to consolidate, their abilities in any of our countries and in any of our situations to control, um, you know, for their interests. And so that brings up sort of what Sophia and, and Grace and Noah were alluding to and, and that bothers me quite a bit 'cause I think the corrupting of democracy is the corrupting of experience and the corrupting of, of better thinking of, of people and people then become pawns and manipulated by powerful interests of whoever they happen to be.

So I think there's a real crisis of leadership at the moment and I don't think people are identifying it. I do think there are some people who are saying, yeah, this is a problem, but I think their hands are tied to do anything about it. But at the core of that is really the biggest ethical dilemmas I think that we're seeing in the year 2026.

And I'm worried about how long that's gonna go. Um, until we wake up and decide. The cynical part of me believes nothing will change until there is significant devastating effects for the decisions that have been made by many of our countries to allow certain people into power. and until we get our brains around that and enough people come to understand the impact of the decisions that they've made from a truth standpoint, right, but also from, from the effects of, of that might be in terms of how we treat each other, the environment and all these other things.

This is gonna continue and that crisis of democracy and that crisis of leadership is leading to a mistrust by everybody, across the board and pushing us further and further and further away. So hopefully we can find people of good, wise standing. encourage them to rise to the top in any of our organizations.

Uh, and that will help us to become, and represent the interest of more people, but become better people overall. But right now we're just not doing that. And I wish it was just one country or one place where it's happening, but it's, it's happening across the globe. and that's a really sad state of affairs, uh, for us to be in.

 Individual Agency and Social Change

Arjun: I have a follow up on that Um, what are things that you, you can do, in your own agency, in your own being as, as people with, in your community, in your, in your school, in your, in your, in your class, in your, with your friend circle. in the interest of making the world maybe a little better place than it is.

Um, one thing that I've seen a lot recently, mostly just online because we live in New Hampshire, but a lot of like protests about the things that are happening in the country right now. And I know that a lot of times they don't actually end up accomplishing much on like the governmental level, but I think it definitely helps to like raise awareness and raise understanding about the issues.

Grace: So that's something that I think is not always the safest, especially right now, but it is like a very possible way of like. Letting issues be known.

Noah: It sounds very cliche, but like even just like the small interactions you have in day-to-day life and like choosing to like be the bigger person sometimes or like choosing to like interact positively can make the world or at least like the society around you, a better place in a small way.

I also think as a society we have potential to accomplish great things, but like we need like either leaders or just some way to get traction. For example, like we had multiple civil rights movements throughout our history as a country, which progressed greatly again, like the cause of civil rights.

But it's like having that unity and that organization as a society and understanding like, we all want to progress this cause so we are gonna get together and do that, which I think is then going into the harder aspect of it.

Zofia: Yeah, I kind of agree with, Noah, like it's a lot of just smaller things and interactions in your everyday life because like for example, I have a friend and we haven't like always agreed on just certain values and stuff like that, but like, just that obviously doesn't affect, like, it's not enough to affect our friendship.

But I think just over time, being open-minded towards each other and just kind of going back and forth about things like both of us have slightly shifted our views. so I think it's just like doing what you can in your everyday life because who knows, maybe you could change someone's mind or maybe your mind could change to work towards a better future.

And then I also think something that's super important is just staying informed and like actively caring about the things that are going on around you. Nothing like. Peeves me more than people who are just like, I really don't care. Like I'm not gonna pay attention because I just couldn't care less about like politics or whatever it is.

No, like politics influence your life. You have to, you have to care. You do care. Even if you're not actively making the decision to go and be more informed or like understand what's going on. You do care because it's what governs your life. It's like the whole system is what leads to your everyday interactions and like decisions.

Chris Brooks: Um, that's a great question, Arjun. I, I would like to believe, and I say that more optimistically than probably realistically, that, you know, the things that we're doing on a daily basis individually will have a significant impact on, you know, making my neighbors once again come to reality around truth or, you know, will, will immediately, you know, fix the environment, or help us with some of the things that we know we have in the United States as political challenges.

I don't know if that will be the case, but I do know that if we. as Noah was saying, sort of deal with what's right in front of us that we're given as opportunities to do the right thing maybe for each other in the moment. Some of these other things might be out of our control, but we can still conduct ourselves on a daily basis with the best of mindsets, optimism, and decision making possible.

And maybe that's all we can control at this moment. Perhaps then that leads to bigger major changes down the road. But I'm not, I, I'm not sure. I really don't know.

And the number, the reason I'm,I'm hesitant to say a whole lot is because we're in a real truth crisis at the moment. So, you know, if we look at it politically in the United States, it seems that a vast majority of people will watch certain media and, and certain, and they'll get certain deductions and other people were watching something completely different.

There's no. There's no middle ground, it seems in some ways. So until we kind of fix that and realize that both sides, if we call it two sides, probably more than that, but just for the sake of simplicity, are being manipulated in the sense that there is no common knowledge and the people who control these mechanisms are making tons of money off of it.

I don't know how much will really change. I would like to believe that some of the people who are making a ton of money and living off of that, would come to some kind of realization that the betterment of humankind, the betterment of the United States or other countries in particular, rides on their ability to kind of be responsible and to say some things that need to be said, right.

About what's important and what's real and what needs to be, you know, dealt with. I don't know whether they ever will, and, and we've kind of given them. As communities, this power. So hopefully some changes may happen there. But in terms of what we do, I think it is pretty local. I think it is kind of what we can deal with on a daily basis with how we treat each other, person to person.

and then those are the choices we have. 

Arjun: what are the questions are on each of your minds and professor, maybe a version of this is, what questions would you.

Hope that we here, Dinesh and I and Abhinav now here carry on as well as part of our conversations with you, with others as well in the futureuh, if you can park some questions with us on your mind that'll be great.

Noah: I guess the question I would start with like kind of surrounding ethics and action specifically is like if we know there's large groups of people who support a certain cause, that is like very important, like let's say combating climate change before it gets like irreversible. If we have this large group of people that all agree that we should do something about it, why is, I'm not gonna say no action 'cause there is action being taken, but not enough in many respects.

And why, if we all agree with this, do we as a society not progress towards this common objective?

Zofia: I think something that just like is a common theme and we've kind of talked about it, but just like. How, like how do you determine what is right or wrong? Especially we talked briefly about different culturals like things and stuff, and um, I know in other conversations I've had it's like, where's the line where you need to step in?

Almost So like one conversation I had was talking about like a group of people who feel that their, female children should not be educated. Like where's the difference between letting parents have that choice for their children or like you needing to step in, like where's the line of tolerating people versus like, you need to step in.

That kind of thing.

Grace: That's kind of similar to what I was thinking about, but on a bigger level, I guess Again, going back to like the government, what's the point where you just kind of accept what they're doing because they govern you. And I know that that's obviously been asked for a long time because of like revolutions and all of that, but it can be on such a small level, but then on such like a big level because like what Z was talking about, it's not actually like outlined in laws about parental autonomy.

Like with everything, like with a lot of things it is, but not everything. And also with the government. So think that should that be outlined or should it be more up to the individual is a question that I have.

Chris Brooks: I, I would probably lead with the question, how do we create a thoughtful, citizenry and a world, where people are exposed to the type of education that makes them better people? I think we've really taken a step back in some ways and, and not always, it's not a bad thing, I would say, perhaps in of itself, but recently, since the late 20th century, it's been a huge conversation around the fact that jobs and, and education should be geared towards, you know, that end result of six figure salaries.

And I do think that is absolutely an economic concern, and I think that's a pressure point created by a system that we've allowed to get to that point where people are that desperate all the time because we have not done our job in creating societies, where people are less fearful, less angry, and can make it economically and survive.

They don't have to be rich, but can do enough to be stable and safe and secure and have clean water. And we haven't done that. and so that's put pressure points on people to see society, education, and all of those pieces that could have. Enrich their lives in different ways. To be very single strand, I gotta get a job.

I'm gonna be trained in just doing this and that's it because I need to survive. That's a symptom of societies that are, as far as I'm concerned, not prioritizing, um, people's wellbeing. And as a result of that, then education has turned into a, a field that's geared much more towards getting me my end result so I can get my job.

 And I wonder where that's torn away, uh, at this kind of idea of a thoughtful citizenry, which is, by the way, also our job. And that's the irony of it, is that, and we disengaged and said, that's not my job. And you can't do that in democratic countries and parliamentary countries where it's required for us all to be kind of doing both jobs, doing the jobs that we need to do to economically survive and contribute to society in that way.

But also there's the responsibility as global citizens and also responsibility in our own countries to be also the citizens who actually are thoughtful in making decisions, that will be in everyone's best interest. And so education, I think, has sort of been thrown to the side as this instrument of "Get me my job" when ultimately it could have done both.

And I think that that has a lot to do with where we are right at the moment. So my question would be how do we cultivate a thoughtful citizenry in the world, country to country and globally? And until we really address that as being a responsibility, that that education should have those two spheres. I think we're, we're kind of caught in that.

And then that leads us to the aligning priorities conversation around than making the conversation thoughtful for people to figure out what is an important priority in their life, and how do they align their living with their priorities. And then that ultimately leads us to the questions I think that, Zofia and, uh, Noah and Grace were talking about, which has to do with, you know, how do we balance our individual rights versus our rights to each other, and how do we decide what role the government should have in our lives?

And I just think all of that undergirding, um, piece, or the undergirding piece of that is, is directly connected to our thoughtfulness and training people and allowing people. And helping people, to be more free and to be more independent. And I think that really comes down to the idea that they have the opportunity to think and can be thoughtful and to take classes that allow them to do that, and then also take that professional trend where they need that as well.

But until we do that better or more easily, I think we're being neglectful and I think that that's really gonna be a continuing problem as we head further into the 21st century.

 Closing Thoughts and Reflections

Arjun: I was also thinking as to what, what would be some of the questions that I would have in mind uh, in the, in the current, uh, context of where there is so much uh, technological development on one side.

Dinesh: And then there is this whole political instability, in different countries. There's this whole, uh, polarization that's happening within countries, within regions, sometimes even within, within families. so, uh, keeping, keeping, these forces in mind in the current context, I was thinking what would be some important characteristics that we would look for in. Uh, in leaders, right?

Chris Brooks: I think that, uh, you're right on Dinesh with one of the bigger issues that I think we're all facing. how are we going to create better leaders? And I think part of education is, is the ability to have these types of conversations. So part of what I've come to understand in the almost 30 years that I've been in the field is that I think there is a place for academic study that does connect with leadership.

and so, you know, we study ethics, but ethics could be just something we do in a class and we could just have great conversations and do nothing about it. You know where a lot of classes are, you know, they expose students to certain theory or concepts and Oh, that's interesting.

And oh, well, I really, I guess, should be a better person. Oh yeah. I never thought about that. Oh, well I'm gonna walk out of the classroom and go right back to my own life in the way that I've lived before. And the challenge is to try to get actionable items off of that. and I think that's difficult. and so that's where I think the leadership part, which is why I think a lot of leadership classes and leadership programs are taking off at the university level.

I personally would like to see a lot of them, and I hope my three friends here would agree, happened at the high school level. And I think it could, you know, happen even earlier than that where students decide they're going to do something impactful. Um, and it's not community service, it's, it's other things as well as that.

 it comes from a mindset of learning about this and discussing it and then making it like, it's important to me to want to do something like this now because I've had the class, or I've had the discourse or I've had conversations on this. So I think it's gotta be educationally for young people, something that meets them where they are.

In a class conversation perhaps, or discourse of any kind, really. But then there's gotta be sort of in the level of actionable items that it means something to them in the practical, and it means something in the professional lives. And they see the ramifications of improved thought, uh, that will help them be, you know, not only, not only good people, but also prosperous as well.

I think we forget to talk about that, which is people who are good people are hired by organizations because they're good people. It's not very often that organizations are gonna go around hiring bad people and then hope that somehow they'll come through. So I think there's a place where there's a direct correlation between prosperous living, responsible living, and also, you know, that element of, of taking responsibility and being good people.

And so I think we can do both.

Zofia: I think too, it's a lot about just like critical thinking and like Chris said, through education and stuff, like putting people in positions where they have to think about complex things and they're trained to do that. And it just would make like every decision maybe be the better decision. And then I also think, like Chris said, like some of it is about being in a stable situation.

So like I, I don't remember who I was talking to, but I was talking to a teacher at one point and they were like, if you're, if you have a student coming to school who's like, like super hungry and they're just thinking about like getting food, getting their next meal or they have to go to work afterwards to help their family out, like whatever it is the situation, they're not gonna be as like productive as a different student.

So I think it's getting to a place where you're stable enough that you can. Like go and do those actionable items. And I also, I also think that there's a lot of, just like hopelessness generally, which is also making people not act on the things that they wanna do. And I think there's a lot of apathy surrounding like climate issues, like political issues, ev, like just social injustices.

And I think if people are motivated and inspired to act, then they'll be more likely to do that.

Outro

Arjun: Chris points to something fundamental that many of our ethical failures are not always about intent.

 But it indicates a certain kind of ignorance that we often act without fully understanding the consequences of what we do. And that lack of understanding is what gets us into trouble. He also brings up a much older question, if no one could see you, and if there was no accountability, would you still act the same way and.

That's probably not hypothetical anymore. Not in a world where anonymity systems and distance can separate action from where the consequences. And from there the concern becomes larger, not just disagreement, but a breakdown in what we accept as truth. 

 whether we are still creating the same conditions where decisions are made in the interest of power and not in the interest of people.

When the problems feel large, whether it is technology, politics, or climate change, the practice of ethics still shows up in smaller everyday decisions. It shows up in the way we are informed. It shows up in the way we are willing to question and choosing how to act even when it is not convenient.

Taking all this together, this leaves us with something that is not fully resolved. In the world of artificial intelligence and as someone who appreciates modeling intelligence into the systems we build, I can appreciate when Chris points out that ethics is not just about knowing what is right or wrong, but it's about how we think and what we notice and what we ignore, and how we respond under pressure.

 before action, before systems and before decisions. There is a way of thinking that shapes all of it, and that's where we go in next into mindsets. Next time on the show, we look at exactly that, what are mindsets, how they are formed, and why the one you carry into a moment may shape the moment itself.

This is the inflection point series. You have been listening to Innocence Theory. Thank you for listening.